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Virgins in Paradise
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Rank: ? (4329)
Member #: 5260 |
I like to examine more than just the theology. I like to examine the people, or as you would call it "practitioners" or as I would call it: worshippers, both in the past and present (as well as those within the scripture itself).
How can you fully understand any religion without understand the people and the motive or belief of following specific religion or teaching? It is good to look in detail of certain parts of religions, but it is also equally important to look at religion as a whole, including the worshippers. Dissect it and analyse specific part when you need to, but don't lose sight to look at the overall picture. It is only when you see the good with the bad (the beautiful with the ugly, the wisdom with the ignorance, light and darkness, shades of colours with shades of greyness, etc) then you can begin to see clearer. Otherwise, you are blind of other considerations. I'm sure you have heard of this old saying, Abd-Allah: "blinded by the light". I choose not to be blinded by the glamours of religions; religion is not all good, nor all bad, because religion has a multiple of layers. As one famous ogre (Shrek) once said, an ogre is like an onion. Religion is like onion too. In Islam, there are wise people and there are ignorant people. There are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims. Often I hear, when regarding about terrorism, moderate Muslims would say these extremists are not Muslims. I am afraid such denials, doesn't and won't wash with me. These radicals, extremists or terrorists are Muslims, and saying that they are not, won't solve problems in your religion until moderate Muslims wake up to the fact that are extremist element in Islam, just as there are extremist factions within Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or whatever religions that exist today. » Post edited 2005-08-18, 04:08pm by storyteller.
Dreams are stories, but my life is just one bad dream. :P
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Rank: ? (63)
Member #: 24257 |
Im sorry, but your idea has no rationale...
Too look at a religion look at its worshippers? Makes no sense to me. But you may do as you wish. For example, if a holy book says: 'Kill one unjustly, it is as if you have killed all of humanity' And then someone kills unjustly, how can you say thats just an 'extreme' version of this? |
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Rank: ? (46)
Member #: 5715 |
Islam has strict teachings against the killing of innocent people. You arent supposed to kill women, children and people who do not wish to fight even during a war. POW's in Islam are supposed to be offered the same food that you give to your own soldiers.
So I guess these people are given reasons that dont comply with islam itself and this nullifies the reason for this forum. I beleive that Hell not Paradise awaits those who are responsible for those who inflict pain and suffering upon innocent people in this manner. There is a real good book called "Islam", by Altaf Kherie. It contains a lot of information about islam, about the rights of women, orphans, etc. What a muslim is allowed to do, etc, etc. <A useful reference for a lot of the discussion on this forum>. Although I do not have it right now. Another valuable reference is Muhammad by Martin Lings, it is a book about the life of the Prophet. It depicts his nature. |
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Rank: ? (4574)
Member #: 51 |
Abd-Allah writes...
For example, if a holy book says:
'Kill one unjustly, it is as if you have killed all of humanity' And then someone kills unjustly, how can you say thats just an 'extreme' version of this? Because the same holy book says: Sura 4: Nisaa, or The Women
88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? God hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. 89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- 90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). 91. Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. You see, to a non-Muslim, this all reads like divine justification for attacking non-believers who have not sufficiently submitted to Islam. The US bombs Iraq, therefore it is failing to "withdraw" or "give guarantees of peace", therefore you can blast the hell out of any of its citizens you can lay your hands on. Sorry, Abd-Allah, it's all there in the Koran in plain black-and-white. And sure, when the US bombs Iraq, innocent civilians become casualties but they are not targeted as they were on sep11 and there is nothing in the Christian gospels to justify the bombings. It's a political act, not a holy one. The Koran makes war holy. If you can't see that, then you can't see the obvious and we're left with very little hope that you'll ever understand how it looks from where we stand. The Koranic passage above practically forbids you from trying to see it from our non-Muslim angle. It's no wonder Muslims are so blind, reading that trash so much. The extremists are scary in an obvious way but the devout moderates like yourself are scarier still. Sorry to be so blunt. » Post edited 2005-08-19, 02:40pm by Arizona.
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Rank: ? (63)
Member #: 24257 |
Arizona writes...
The Koran makes war holy. If you can't see that, then you can't see the obvious and we're left with very little hope that you'll ever understand how it looks from where we stand. The Koranic passage above practically forbids you from trying to see it from our non-Muslim angle. It's no wonder Muslims are so blind, reading that trash so much.
Interesting ayat(verses) you have quoted. The first question I pose to you is: If the Qur'an commands us all to kill non believeres where we find them, why arent we on a killing spree in Australia now? 
Every verse has a context and a meaning. Literal English means nothing. The Qur'an isnt English, but we can use a translation if neccesary. However, it is essential you consult a Tafsir (Commentary/Meaning) and moderate scholars, not Wahabi wannabes. In these verses, that is, the fighting verses, there is a meaning you do not take into account. Let me demonstrate with Surat al Tauba. Qur'an 9:1-10 writes... 9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.
[9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers. [9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution. [9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous. [9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. [9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know. [9:7] How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous. [9:8] How can they (demand a pledge) when they never observed any rights of kinship between you and them, nor any covenant, if they ever had a chance to prevail. They pacified you with lip service, while their hearts were in opposition, and most of them are wicked. [9:9] They traded away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. Consequently, they repulsed the people from His path. Miserable indeed is what they did! [9:10] They never observe any rights of kinship towards any believer, nor do they uphold their covenants; these are the real transgressors. Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. I have also bolded a section that is often brought up, on its own, to show that the Qur'an makes violence essential or what have you. These ayat (to keep it short) refer to a treaty the Muslims had with the Polytheists of Mecca. The Polytheists broke the treaty and therefore these verses explain to the Muslims that they have no more responsibility to follow its conditions. Ill explain this further if you like. But what is the real implication here? Is it that a religion that allows violence cannot be truly divine? What would happen if we all turned the other cheek against rapists, murderers or even still, people fighting us? Chaos.
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Rank: ? (4574)
Member #: 51 |
Abd-Allah writes...
If the Qur'an commands us all to kill non believeres where we find them, why arent we on a killing spree in Australia now?
You haven't the power or the numbers. History indicates that if you did, the Koran wouldn't stop you, it would only provide fuel for the fire. That's my point. But what is the real implication here? Is it that a religion that allows violence cannot be truly divine?
Islam does not merely allow violence, it incites violence. Yes, it is a religion all the same but it's one I would eradicate completely if I had the power to do so. Just as I would eradicate the AIDS virus completely if I had the power to do so. What would happen if we all turned the other cheek against rapists, murderers or even still, people fighting us?
If we all did it, there would be no rapists or murderers. In the real world we must defend ourselves. That's what I'm doing now by telling it like it is. It's a war of words and confrontational and it is not turning the other cheek. The Jews are just as bad. Both Judaism and Islam are ascendancy religions and neither will bat an eyelid at the wholesale massacre of people who get in their way. Christianity, as heir to Judaism, also suffers this defect in practice although the essential message of Jesus is the very opposite. I'd wipe out Judaism as well as Islam if I had the power to do so ... and without spilling one drop of blood either. It should not be necessary to hurt people physically to alter their beliefs. Realistically, however, I know that Christianity rules because the nuke rules and the nuke was made by science. It's as simple as that. |
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Rank: ? (4329)
Member #: 5260 |
Abd-Allah writes...
In these verses, that is, the fighting verses, there is a meaning you do not take into account.
Perhaps, Abd-Allah. But don't you think that there are Muslims who also don't take these verses that you've just quoted "into account". Some Muslims seemed to pick-and-choose to adhere to some quotations more than others. If you look at how the Qur'an is relevant to today's events, then you will see that not all Muslims would honour every single quotation within the Qur'an. In fact, you can say that many have chosen to accept or not to accept the verses you've just quoted either literally or not. How many Muslims would honour his enemies "to the letter" of the Qur'an of every single passage? Those extremists have chosen to "pick-and-choose" which one would suit them in their so-called jihad, and ignore the rest. And the quotes they had on literally and have used them to justify their actions, their jihad. The video of beheading of civilians had not only chose to mix war/politics with religion, they have done so ignoring whatever restrictions the Qur'an had set. Why? Because there are contradictions within the Qur'an, and some Muslims would choose to take advantage of it, if and when it suit them. Bin Laden has done so. And so have many radical Muslim clerics. There are conflicting views between moderates and radicals. The big problem is the word jihad or "holy war". It seemed that for some Muslims can use jihad in any number of contexts that suit them, from just a personal struggle within themselves to act of violence upon non-Muslim person, people, community or nation. The motives behind a person's jihad can be pure of heart or it can be trivial and dangerous for any number of revenge. So can you really blame any non-Muslims for having suspicion on Islam as a religion of peace? From a non-Muslim's perspective, the very notion of jihad begs a question that's really needed to be asked, and we are getting conflicting views from moderate and radical Islam. Neither side of Islam is made clear, and the reluctant of moderate Muslims or their inability to take decisive actions against the more violent elements of Islam have gone against your religion. And so far, the voices of Muslim extremists are louder than the moderates. From a non-Muslim's standpoint, jihad seemed to be nothing more than revenge when it is used with physical force, and definitely no better than a Christian crusade. Crusades are outdated, but it seemed that Islam had not grown out of archaic courses of action. And in that concatenation jihad certainly has very little to with spreading Islam as a religion of peace in the modern Western societies.
Dreams are stories, but my life is just one bad dream. :P
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Rank: ? (1224)
Member #: 15685 |
Arizona writes...
Islam does not merely allow violence, it incites violence. Yes, it is a religion all the same but it's one I would eradicate completely if I had the power to do so. Just as I would eradicate the AIDS virus completely if I had the power to do so.
Hmmm...that's kinda extreme don't you think? Eradicating an entire religion cause it may promote violence and terrorism? If someone had the power to eradicate the catholic religion during the dark ages, then there would be a major social impact on the world today won't it? If the only way of eradicating Islam were to shoot every muslim in the head, would you take it? Well i'm not really saying that you don't have the right to voice your opinion on this cause i can understand the growing frustration of non-muslims when we see the news of innocent people getting killed....especially so if there are loved ones involved... but comparing Islam with AIDS? AIDS is a virus that has no benefits to humanity(well, other than promoting safe sex....in my opinion, isn't really great anyway  ). Islam however, does have it's benefits and morals to humanity. It's not ALL about violence.
I guess all i'm trying to say it still boils down to human choice...free will. Either you choose to commit terrorism or save lives....We can have one muslim go around blowing himself up to prove a point and we can have another going around trying to save lives by becoming a doctor. All the rest is just painted layers of propaganda I saw an episode from the Lost tv series (yeah i get my morals from the TV) where one of the survivors(which was Iraqi) was trying to save the life of his friend who had become a suicide bomber. In the end his friend decided AGAINST his teachings and knew blowing himself up and killing innocent people was just plain wrong. He couldn't take the guilt and killed himself...it got me thinking.....All these people now who are suicide bombers appear to be middle class graduates who have an education...normal school/college going guys/girls...if they have a chance to being brainwashed into thinking they get virgins in paradise...they can also be made to change their minds if the right points can be said to them....so in the end what im trying to say is, its the human choice and decisions that cause them to be what they are, and not a religion... so no matter what a religion teaches, if one follows his own mind on what's good and whats not, it doesn't really matter what a religion decides to preach....no matter how twisted it can become Thats how i see it 
Stick and Stones may break my bones but Caricatures will cause a riot!
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Rank: ? (4329)
Member #: 5260 |
Arizona writes...
Islam does not merely allow violence, it incites violence. Yes, it is a religion all the same but it's one I would eradicate completely if I had the power to do so.
Viper55 writes... Hmmm...that's kinda extreme don't you think? Eradicating an entire religion cause it may promote violence and terrorism? If someone had the power to eradicate the catholic religion during the dark ages, then there would be a major social impact on the world today won't it? If the only way of eradicating Islam were to shoot every muslim in the head, would you take it?
I believe that she was referring to Islam, not Muslims. To get rid of the Qur'an and the hadiths. She have also said "I'd wipe out Judaism as well as Islam if I had the power to do so ...". Again, she was referring to the religion itself, therefore getting rid of Judaism would mean getting rid of the Tanakh (Hebrew Scripture), and accompanied texts, eg. Talmud. She said "I would do so if I could", and "and without spilling one drop of blood either. It should not be necessary to hurt people physically to alter their beliefs." I don't know how you would do so, without incurring the wrath of Muslims and Jews.
Dreams are stories, but my life is just one bad dream. :P
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Rank: ? (1224)
Member #: 15685 |
The only way im guessing to remove a religion is to remove the people who believe it. A religion cannot be sustained if noone believes it. And it's next to impossible to get Islam out of a Muslim without resorting to violence...lol....I live in a muslim country and dang is it hard to sway their believes with just words.....anyways the word "eradicate" scared me a little....
Unless Arizona has the power of hypnotic suggestion
Stick and Stones may break my bones but Caricatures will cause a riot!
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Rank: ? (4329)
Member #: 5260 |
You are right in that you can't see how this can be done without killing and violence. Take away their sweets, and a religious person will fight to get it back, tooth and nail, even if it meant that the sweets were what had cause that person to rot their teeth in the first place.
Sometimes, I just don't understand the logic of religion. 
Here, Viper. You can have your fang back. 
Dreams are stories, but my life is just one bad dream. :P
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Rank: ? (4574)
Member #: 51 |
OK, just to clarify: I did not mean eradicating the people, just the beliefs. Religious beliefs can be a group acceptance phenomenon and fashions come and go. If it became massively uncool to believe in Islam or Judaism, then both would be eradicated pretty fast. It's possible but I'm not equipped to achieve that myself. A gifted writer like Salman Rushdie could do it, I think, but he'd need to publish the worst stuff posthumously or else anonymously (say, over the internet). Any cultural product that is really damaging to Islam is dangerous for those who make them but still, it's possible. And, as I say, not a drop of blood need be spilt in the process (so long as Muslims can constrain themselves and/or the critics of Islam keep themselves safe).
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Rank: ? (63)
Member #: 24257 |
Arizona writes...
although the essential message of Jesus is the very opposite.
What, pre tell, is the "essential message of Jesus"? (or is it Isau, Isa, Yeoshua)? Christianity doesnt rule anything. I would not want to wipe out their so called scriptures either. Your understanding of Islam is limited because you are not a Muslim. You do not consult ulema. You merely make up your own mind, based on your English translation Qur'an and hadith. Put simply, you have no idea. And claims like: Arizona writes... did not mean eradicating the people, just the beliefs. Religious beliefs can be a group acceptance phenomenon and fashions come and go. If it became massively uncool to believe in Islam or Judaism, then both would be eradicated pretty fast.
Show just how mentally limited you are. |
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Rank: ? (1224)
Member #: 15685 |
storyteller writes...
Here, Viper. You can have your fang back.
Eh? Didnt know i lost a tooth....i was wondering why i couldn't bite on the right side... Abd-Allah writes... Show just how mentally limited you are.
woah...no personal attacks...lets keep it friendly...try and convince Arizona without resorting to insults.... let us all be friends and sing a happy camp song..."Koombayah...KoomBayah..." *BANG*
*Viper55 was shot before he could finish his song* Ughh...im ok....im ok...don't worry...*gurgle* 
Stick and Stones may break my bones but Caricatures will cause a riot!
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Rank: ? (4329)
Member #: 5260 |
Sorry, Viper.
My finger slip in the trigger, and I was quite sure the gun was empty. Lemme see. 
*look at down the barrel of the gun, and pulling the trigger to see if there are any more bullet.*
*click* *click* *click* *BANG!!!*
Dreams are stories, but my life is just one bad dream. :P
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Rank: ? (4574)
Member #: 51 |
Not sure what to add to this apparent madhouse.
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Rank: ? (63)
Member #: 24257 |
Niether am I. Cept a sorry to Arizona. :$
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Rank: ? (4574)
Member #: 51 |
Abd-Allah writes...
a sorry to Arizona. :$
no hard feelings
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Rank: ? (4329)
Member #: 5260 |
Arizona writes...
Not sure what to add to this apparent madhouse.
Madhouse?
I thought I was in snake-pit full of vipers. Is Dr Angelo here?
Dreams are stories, but my life is just one bad dream. :P
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Rank: ? (644)
Member #: 25349 |
You know, my two cents on this is that I have difficulty accepting ANYTHING from people (practitioners) who are not permitted to question certain aspects of what they believe. To me this is psychological suicide. To take things on "faith" is just asking for it.
Why can't man come up with a philosophy that ALLOWs, no INSISTS, that the practitioner examine what they believe. I think that it just makes more sense to me to act from a position of knowledge, confirmable knowledge, rather than blind acceptance. Hey, god is supposed to be greater than sliced bread... it shouldn't be something secretive or hopelessly obscure. I think this is a fallacy that we have all just been suckered into... because no one gave it much thought.
It is true that the early bird gets the worm, however, it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.
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